Podcast 178: What If I’m “Too Numb” to Connect? with Bernie Salazar

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 0:11

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Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 0:27

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Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 0:30

Welcome to the Body Kindness podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Scritchfield. And I'm here to help you find your inner caregiver, you'll have more compassion, less shame, and the tools you need to deal with a culture that just does not want you to be free to give yourself fierce love. You are welcome and you belong in our community, where we value your well being, we share our experiences and support each other on the body kindness journey. And we know that your health and your worth is not dependent on your weight. If you would like to enjoy self care, be less self critical, and make your life about more than your health routines. Join us at body kindness book.com/start.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 1:29

Hey, listeners, it's Rebecca, before we get into today's episode, which is a very powerful conversation with Bernie, I just wanted to give you a little bit of a heads up about the content. And so as you know, Bernie and I took a pretty long break during the COVID 19 pandemic. And we felt so fortunate to be able to find some time to reconnect, it was the very end of 2021. And we were able to have a couple conversations. And honestly, there was no agenda, I just kind of hit record on the mic and see what Bernie was bringing to me. You know, he and I had been friends for a while. And we've been through a lot. And as you've come to know, Bernie, and if you've been listening for a while he's like an open book and felt willing to share and really is just open and curious and honest about how he's feeling, which has been this feeling of not feeling kind of like describing it as numbness. So that was opened up in our first reconnection episode, which if you haven't listened to it, it's it's a great listen, you can kind of go back and then come back to this one if you'd like. And this is the second in a group of three and we just expand with more insight about how numbness has shown up for him differently at different times in his life. He re discloses a childhood trauma, he doesn't go into any detail about it, the focus is not on his trauma at all. But it's really just a naming and an acknowledgement that he recognizes and validates that, you know, that pains from his past are showing up in different ways now that he is a parent. And that's going to come out more and more in this episode and in the next episode. So we are so grateful to have you as a listener, and we really hope you find a sense of connection to us and to our common humanity and listening to these conversations. And Bernie and I will be back together with more episodes and connection throughout 2022. So thank you so much for listening, and hope you enjoy.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 3:34

Hi Bernie!

Bernie Salazar: 3:36

Hey, Becca, nice to be back on Body Kindness.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 3:39

I know I'm I'm so grateful that we have a chance to, to reconnect. And I know when we were kind of scrambling to find some time to get together, we just had a chance to talk about how exhausted and overwhelmed we felt really and you know, hoping that we weren't alone and that there are listeners who can relate and who find a sense of connection and validation in our conversations. And I was hoping that we could start today talking about a word that you used actually on several shows. But you know most recently on the last chat you would talk about kind of feeling a variety of emotions but eventually get to this feeling of numb or "numbness" and so I just you know want to have some you know space where we can listen and connect to each other around you know, kind of what's going on with you and and how I can help you can feel free to ask me questions or just share what's going on in your world.

Bernie Salazar: 4:59

Yeah, no, I appreciate it. You know, I don't know, you know, it's been a while since I brought this up this feeling up. For new listeners, this is something that I experienced posts Biggest Loser. And for those listeners that have been with us the whole time I, I definitely am feeling this sense of numbness again. And, you know, this is around both good and bad things. I, you know, after our last conversation, I have given it some thought and I just feel like it's my defense mechanism, how I cope with things, right, a lot of people, you know, will get extremely sad and down. And I understand that I have people like that in my family. And, you know, that's very serious. And we have people that are, you know, also will ride the wave up, when, you know, really good things happen. And for me, it's always been the way I deal with things is just kind of staying, oh, gosh, just numb. You know, so whether it's good or bad thing? It's, yeah, I you know, it is, but it's a bit it's an awareness of what's going on around me. So it's not disengage where I refuse to, to see what's happening, or where I, where I'm unaware of how I should be affected by an event. If that makes any sense. I'm like, oh, I should feel this way. You know, or this. It's not even should right, like this event, normally might trigger this in in someone's feelings. I reach a point where it just, I'm just, yeah, just know, it's, it's the weirdest, it's, it's the weirdest thing. And, and, you know, if you've listened to some of our past discussions, I mean, there's definitely trauma and things that I'm dealing and coping with, whether it be, you know, being abused as a child, or, you know, my experience, using food to cope. Just, you know, we all come with different backgrounds and experiences, and they all play into how we deal and navigate life to with a navigate life. So, I mean, for me, I've, I yeah, I get this feeling of numbness. And these are difficult times, right? For our listeners. I mean, you guys can relate, I don't have to tell you, we're all we're all navigating something that is new to, to everyone, including our parents and grandparents, right? We can't even go to God, you know, to them for guidance. And we're all figuring out how to make that happen, you know, how to live with this new normal, both live with ourselves live with our partners, children. I mean, it's, it's a lot to handle. And for me, unfortunately, like, I, I find myself going back to this feeling of no ups or downs.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 8:13

I mean, you know, and all of the emotions that we feel in life as part of being human is there, we know they're there. They're meant to be there. We are meant to feel feel a wide variety of emotions and don't necessarily need to chase them away or panic that, you know, we might never feel positive emotions again. In fact, we can often get into like an extreme, you know, if you think about the helpfulness so that when a part of you is worried about like, why am I numb, is that ever gonna go away and maybe some anxieties spills into that, if your mind will let you start to think that way? It's like, well, think of how helpful it is from that part that doesn't want it's, it's, it's afraid, right? It's fear based like it, it might be able to accept that some amount of, you know, negative emotion, sadness, numbness is okay, but it's more worried about, well, I want you to be on the happier side. So when is that going to come back? So so everything, you know, it kind of has a function, you know, in listening to you talk. I'm a bit curious and again, like not no diagnosis or anything that's just more friend of friend but I know we've talked about your trauma before child physical abuse, and that it like traumas, kind of always with us. There's I don't know if you've heard of dissociation before.

Bernie Salazar: 9:46

Vaguely right. Like I think I know what where you're going with it. But I'm not. I wouldn't say I wouldn't. I wouldn't know what to fill it on a test, Rebecca.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 9:55

I mean, this is just like a basic WebMD article. That's, you know, been medically reviewed by by a doctor. And it says, you know, "Most people Daydream now. And then if that happens to you, it's perfectly normal. But if you have a mental health problem called dissociation, your sense of disconnect from the world around you, is often a lot more complicated than that. dissociation is a break in how your mind handles information, you may feel disconnected from your thoughts, feelings, memories, and surroundings, it can affect your sense of identity and your perception of time."

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 10:34

And anyway, it's it's I work with clients with dissociation, and, and I, I recognize that there is a spectrum of it. So it's, it's more feeling to me like something that's similar. But this article goes on to talk about symptoms. And that one of one of the, like, changes in the way you feel is like, feel emotionally numb or detached. There's another one, like, feel little or no pain, feel like you're a different person sometimes. Anyway, you know, to me, I don't really care at all about labels or anything like that, you know, it's not about the label, it continues on to talk about causes of dissociation, trauma being their childhood abuse, being being listed under one of the examples of traumas, in any way, it's I, the reason why I even kind of bring it up and everything like that, it's not so much is that oh, you know, I think this is dissociation because I don't, but I do think that there's just set when we need to sort of make sense of a situation, right? Like, if we can radically accept and validate like, I am a person that has a trauma history, right, I'm a person that feels a full spectrum of emotions, and like anyone, sometimes the feeling can feel too much. And my mind needs to make some kind of a shift. And it sounds like that, in that shift as a coping mechanism. It is this sort of some type of disconnect, or close off newness, that I I know how productive you are, and, you know, you, you, you run businesses, with your wife, you're running your own business, you're a parent of two amazing kids, so probably like me, and that you can actually function and look like you got your shit together. But inside it can feel like things are crumbling down, or like you need to take space from people without actually being able to take space. So, you know, like I said, sometimes just this making sense of oh, so there's this thing out there. And you know, maybe this isn't quite it, but I can relate to this, you know, because in that sort of, there's this little inner child that's kind of like, oh, what's wrong with me? And am I gonna be okay? And I think that little worried panicked and our child that if we can make sense of what's happening in life and understand it, and to know that it's part of how full complete unbroken humans go through life that it's like we can start rising up this inner caregiver that just can hug and love on that inner child says I love you no matter what I'm committed to you no matter what we're gonna get through this no matter what. I'm here like let's go What's up you know, and you know, ultimately you're back to true inner caregiving and true body kindness, you know, and I don't give a crap if it's like so I ate grapes today or I had a salad you know, that's great when we get there right but true true. The roots of body kindness love connect care, you know, make make your choices from a place of love and that very well could be I'm not doing exercise I'm gonna do some breath work and some play time with kids. You know, connect to your body. Yeah, I'm thirsty if you can feel that great. Have an injury. Yeah,

Bernie Salazar: 14:13

I think for me, you know, part of that numbness and what I'm you know, most I don't want to say worried but just you know, gosh, aware of is is the Connect aspect of it just isn't there right for me, I can't because of the numbness so you know, I I not enjoying meals. You know, I'm not getting anything out of any movement. You know,

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 14:35

Do you say screw it a lot like and like if even if a party?

Bernie Salazar: 14:39

Yeah, but my screw it's very different. So like my screw it isn't like screw it. I'm going to eat this or that or whatever. You know, like and again, when I say that I'm not talking about Ooh, bad foods. I'm just talking about AI. So that's not my screwed any screw. It isn't like let me go towards this or mindlessly overdo it.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 15:01

Can I just ask before you talk about your script, just for those who might not have listened to everything you said my "screw it" isn't that anymore? So there was a time in your life where foods either or over eat.

Bernie Salazar: 15:13

Yeah, yeah, I mean with food was always Oh yeah, yeah no it definitely was it just isn't that anymore I'm not I'm not in that mind space.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 15:22

But isn't that amazing? Like...

Bernie Salazar: 15:24

Yeah, it is it is right but I almost feel like in my numbness I've also lost my tastebuds. Right. So it's like, eh, you know, like it again, it if you're, you know, for those that are listening to this episode, like, good and bad, like, if it's great. I'm like, eh, if it's bad, I'm like, eh, I literally eat the same amount like, like, you know, and again, that's just that's super odd.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 15:49

Yeah, okay, okay. Well, let's.

Bernie Salazar: 15:52

I like I like talking about a relation to food. Because I think that that's that's, that makes sense. Right? It would make it makes sense to me would make sense to my kids and hopefully make sense to our listeners. Yeah, if it's good or bad, I'm still eating the same amount, like

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 16:06

So I have a phrase that I use now with clients that I got from Emily Nagasaki, who wrote Come As You Are and Burnout, she wrote Burnout with her twin sister. I'll share those links to those all those podcasts in the show notes as they're phenomenal. And she said, Rebecca, "pleasure is the measure". And I was like, Oh, I love that. But... And so there is you can imagine that there's a lot of well, in our society, if you're allowed right to get pleasure from food, or you might be working on that permission, you know that there is a strong positive association between tasting something that tastes great, the dopamine reward saying, "Ooh, this is nice, more please." And then kind of enjoying the experience the taste of the food, enjoying the people around you enjoying all there is to savor and then through "Connect", right, connecting to your body to notice that sense of satisfaction and fullness. And not. Again, early people early in their experience coming off of chronic dieting, they'll kind of use intuitive eating like The Hunger fullness diet. Oh, perfectly comfortable for you to stop right here. It's like, no, no, no, you sometimes want to get like past comfortable and stuff. And just in especially if the context like just because you don't stop on a diamond controlling it that way. But, you know, in it sounds like part of what I'm hearing from you is there was a time where screw it, you would kind of numb or cope through restriction. Right? And, you know, even if someone has a, you know, they're they're questioning, you know, am I an emotional eater? Or do I binge eat? One of the first things that I'll tell them is that, that, that whether or not it's diagnoseable, as a binge eating disorder, or chaotic eating on the spectrum bit, you know, eating that feels like a binge, it is it's a restrictive disorder. So it almost always is you're eating very little, you're being very controlling, you're, you're disconnecting from validating that you deserve pleasure with food and eating. And that restriction leads to these episodes of biologically, the body is trying to maintain homeostasis, and, you know, and and then it's like, Oh, see, you know, I ate too much. This is why can't have fill in the blank food. Well, it actually was more likely started by something else. So you've had a long history of that. And really, it wasn't until I think it was us doing body kindness work that really helped with that. But interesting, right? That the choice of coping, right, so you've learned enough for your brain, you've literally got the neurons that are like, Oh, wait, that shit doesn't work. Now, maybe some of it is oh, because I can't feel the pleasure. I'm not going to choose this as coping. I'm not sure. But I really haven't had many people who said that they they really tasted and enjoyed food, when they were eating when they were trying to control or numb things, right. But you did get to a point where eating was joyful and pleasurable. And now it's like, what I'm saying is it doesn't matter. It could be Michelin star, whatever. I can't give a shit.

Bernie Salazar: 19:12

Yeah, yeah, pretty much. I mean, you hit it on the head. And, you know, there was a lot in there that you shared for me. You know, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners can relate like I am, and always have been, you know, a caregiver, like I care about people, you know, and I'm happiest when I'm caring for people outside of myself, and we can lose ourselves in that right. And I think that given all that's happening in the world, you know, we have been forced to care for others for non stop for two, two and a half years. Right. So I think, you know, US caregivers run the risk of just burnout in general, right, one and two and a half years of trying to care for others, or put others needs first and is, is downright exhausting. Right? And, and we're all doing it in different ways when I say that, you know, I do have two little ones at home, right? And then if you look at your job or a business or you know, as another child, right, like, like something you have to take care of, you have to show up for, you know, there's that. And then there's, of course, all that's going on with the extra amount of worry outside of yourself, like oh my gosh, like, are they going to get sick? Oh, my gosh, they are sick? Oh, my gosh, you know, this is going on. So there's all those different things happening. And there's been no respite for us.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 20:57

Mm hm. um....

Bernie Salazar: 21:02

I mean, I know, it's off track what I'm saying

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 21:03

It's not off track at all.

Bernie Salazar: 21:03

I just feel like, you know, why am I feeling numb? Well, it's because if we feel the amount of, of, "woe", whatever that is, that's going on in the world. Like, it's a, it's a bunch like that. So that's a bunch to deal with. And for me, you know, I've always, you know, for better for worse, you know, part of my escape and as I was been, you know, caring for others needs. And I was to a point prior to to, to this, where I was aware that I need to be meeting more of my needs. And I was starting to do that, right, everything from nourishing myself, to moving my body to connecting with people like that was happening more. But the world hasn't allowed for those things, right? Like, you can only connect, even to the ones you love the most like my kids, I could only connect to them for so much for so long before you need to find other connections. And there's nothing wrong in saying that. But it's true. Like, like, I have literally run out of things to talk about with my two year old. My six year old and I have had the same conversation over and over again. And that's just normal, right? When you have kids, they're going to ask the same question over and over again. But for me, I'm finding that my answers are shorter, or they're not, as you know, detailed and I have to remind myself in this, that they're looking for some type of normalcy or growth even in times where we are finding it hard to provide that for them. So there's all that worry that's pent up in there. And I think that you know, for me, it's like, okay, get through this day, do this, do that. I think a lot of us are doing that right now. So for me again, it goes back to this. How can I stay numb to stay functional? Maybe that's it.

Bernie Salazar: 21:23

Right coping mechanism, right?

Bernie Salazar: 22:06

Yeah. Like if I don't feel any of this shit. I you'll still be able to get through my day. Right. I don't know if I could relate to that. If I can get an amen. But I mean, we got to figure out how to find joy in these moments.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 23:19

Yeah. But not faking it.

Bernie Salazar: 23:24

I'm not saying that. Yeah, I would say the whole like, smile, you know, in the mirror type thing. Like I get that. But, you know, sometimes you just want to punch the mirror. Like it's I'm not gonna pretend that that's what it is.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 23:37

Maybe punch a pillow, right? Maybe?

Bernie Salazar: 23:39

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course. I'm not gonna punch mayor. But yet I'm saying like, I've never been one to just like, let me look at myself and try to smile in the mirror a couple times. It just it doesn't feel genuine to me.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 23:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, oh, there's so many things I want to mention. Well, one thing, you know, it's with there's like, the typical childcare burden, right? And least in the United States, right, there's just sort of, it's like, there's, it's like, there's a bridge you cross over. But you didn't know anything about what was on the other side of the bridge. There was no pre book there. Like, there is nothing, right. And interestingly, because of how, you know, we talk about like unpaid labor of caregiver work and emotional labor of caregiver work and these, you know, it's, you know, tough to get minimum wage increase and, you know, like, there's, there's literally so many factors that put, you know, people who were caregivers and it's and it's not just your natural disposition to make sure everyone's happy, you know, I got that too. It is literally the Okay, I'm responsible for, you know, other people until at least 18, maybe longer, you know, but it is it can feel like like a burden and like a very scary overwhelming burden. COVID just really made that a nightmare. And, you know, right in the early stages, I knew that it was going to be at least 18 months till the vaccine. And when the kids were first out of school, it was like two weeks out of school. And then and it was like one thing after another, and I talked to my friend Soraya Chamaly, who wrote Rage Becomes Her. And she actually is writing another book now on trauma and collective trauma. And we were chatting early in the pandemic, and she said, what's happening right now with a lot of people is anticipatory grief. And it's this idea of something bad's going to happen to me, my kids to someone I love, and there's nothing I can do about it. And so it was this, these overwhelming negative emotions, anxiety based negative emotions, that would could just make you feel trapped, numb, exhausted. And so it's like, oh, here's crossing over that bridge to becoming a parent, right, with no resources and like, Oh, crap, you're like in a video game or something, you know, and then on top of that, oh, well, you know, now we're going to throw the pandemic on you. And I think I'll raise my hand in this, like, when I could get my vaccine, I felt amazing. And then the booster, and I feel like we sort of had this summer of somewhat freedom, maybe we could breathe. And then when delta came, you know, and then, okay, we got through Delta, and then Omicron. And it's just, I just think that it is that that aspect of the exhaustion, and I know, you know, that there are people who have kids or other people in their lives who literally cannot get vaccinated. And that is awful. Because you would take a measure if you could, but you can't. And now we have how long you've had to endure this, that it's like, hey, like you said, I'm just gonna be numb. So I can like live.

Bernie Salazar: 27:19

yeah, yeah, I'm just like, it's so funny, right? Because and not that, like, I'm not I'm not a weed smoker. Like I'm you know, but I guess that would be like the equivalent nothing wrong with it. I mean, don't get me wrong. I said, Hey, if it works for you, it works. But um, I just, you know, I don't want to take chances with munchies, you know, but I guess that would be kind of how, how that feeling might be, maybe I'm imagining what,

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 27:46

You know, what's weird to me is, is going back to Emily. And pleasure as a measure. I'm just like, maybe we all need to be having more orgasms. Even if we're by ourselves, like, not, even "if" it easier for me to be by myself.

Bernie Salazar: 28:00

You know, that might be something to look into instead of, you know, substances.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 28:04

Sort of numb feeling after that.

Bernie Salazar: 28:07

Yeah, just have more orgasms. But, you know, for me, too, it's like, I don't feel like I'm enjoying. God. So my little guy, right, is he just turned two. And like, I'm not doing some of the stuff with him that I did with number one now, you know, is that can I attribute that to what's going on with COVID? Sure, yeah, absolutely. But I'm also like, wondering, is this just what number two gets, like, my poor little guy, right? So like, you know, I'm not doing and these are all things that I enjoyed with with with my daughter, like, you know, taking them to little music classes or doing things like that, these are all things that I never got, right, like, so of course, as a parent, at least for me, like, I'm going to try to do things that I was never, you know, exposed to, and just really try to fill him with experiences. And I can't write like, I can't take him to go kick a ball around, you know, on a little team or, you know, so I'm trying to find things that bring joy, not just to him, but to me as a parent, right. Like, I'm excited. I you know, I know what I was able to experience with my daughter and I was hoping to be able to experience some of those with him and it's just, I'm seeing the time flash, right, like because he was born in October of 19. You know, we went into gosh, like lockdown in March 20. So, you know, six months into this kid's life, you know, I call him my, my quarantine kid. Like he doesn't know what the world is outside of, you know? It being half functioning.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 29:52

I mean, are you worried is he going to be okay?

Bernie Salazar: 29:55

What do you mean? Oh course. I mean, as a parent, I'm always worried like have a yes that's easy.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 30:01

An "always worried" parent is probably an anxious parent. So,

Bernie Salazar: 30:05

so yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, I don't I don't know how to not be over the top on my response. They're like, Yeah, of course, like, that's my little guy. Like, she's my, my, you know, my kids are my world. So yeah, I'm always worried and always worried that that, you know, I can't cash enrich their lives in the way that I would like to... but yeah, that's it.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 30:34

I just wonder if there's some perfectionism going on like, and listen I'm saying...

Bernie Salazar: 30:39

This goes back to it Listen No No Listen, we can go there right like I mean gosh, we've been everywhere - fuck this is gonna be one of those podcasts where this was gonna be like holy shit he's lost it. Let me answer that for you I have and if you want to join the club like just I'm here we're gonna get through it but yeah, I've lost my shit. So let me go back to that whole like, parenting thing like, we've already talked about my past trauma, there was some physical abuse there. You know, I had a single parent who was amazing. But because she was busy providing for us wasn't there much. You know? My my biological father was never around. So yeah, am I trying to fucking overcompensate with my children? Sure. Am I trying to get them experiences and show them love that I was never shown? Absolutely. Am I worried about them in a way that my biological father never worried about me? Fuck yeah. Yes, absolutely. Does that cause me a tremendous amount of anxiety that I you know, could potentially fuck this up? Yeah. So is it unhealthy? Am I doing too much? For me? Yeah, that's what we're talking about right now. How do I deal with that? I go numb. So, there we go. Full Circle. Frickin solved. And cut.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 32:08

Instead of go numb, go masturbate. Just kidding.

Bernie Salazar: 32:14

We talked about that before, but we've talked about that for again, past listeners, like, like masturbation for me was was few and far between. And that's rare for a guy.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 32:23

Right? Well, so like everyone has different amounts of, you know...

Bernie Salazar: 32:27

Listen, you're right. Yeah, that's based on media and movies and all that. But I mean, you know, we tend to men talk about it more than I've ever heard women talk about it, you know, and again, we've... We've had past episodes on this, but it was never something that I completely dove into. Yeah, I mean, sure. At this point. I'll try anything. I'll let you know how that goes. We'll let the listeners know. But, again, that numbness trickles into everywhere.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 32:27

Yeah.

Rebecca Scritchfield, RDN: 32:28

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